Curse

Godrik Gandolfi · Jun 10, 2011, 12:30 PM // 12:30

While working through the hard mode content of the game my guildies and I were discussing a problem that was apparent with the standard minion bomber build used in the current meta for team-builds such as Sabway, Mesway etc, and applies particularly to melee-support team builds.

We were finding that with a strong party of heroes and 1-2 human players applying melee support buffs such as Mark of Pain, Splinter Weapon, Strength of Honor etc, mobs are evaporating so fast that the minions arrive in the battle as the last foes die. This seemed a bit of a waste, but for larger longer lasting battles, having the minions as chaff to divert aggro is very valuable, and skills like Barbs which buff minion attacks too are useful. The condition spamming of Death Nova is also useful.

So could we do better?

Tainted Flesh
Animate Bone Minions
Putrid Explosion
Vile Miasma
Putrid Bile
[Smite Condition]
[Smite Hex]
Signet of Lost Souls

12+1+1 Death Magic, 8+1 Soul Reaping, 10 Smiting Prayers
Survivors insignia x4, Bloodstained insignia, vigor, vitae x 2

We came up with this build as an alternative. There are still minions to serve as chaff and meat-shield in longer battles, but Tainted Flesh serves to spread the diseased condition, up front with the melee player where the action is happening in the first few seconds. Putrid Explosion likewise makes use of the corpses for damage, and once again this takes place in the battlefield from the start, without waiting for minions to arrive from the rear. Putrid Bile and Vile Miasma serve for additional damage and can be swapped with other skills if needed.

The smiting skills are optional utilities and can be swapped for what ever the team needs, and SoLS provides energy to power the build.

This seems to be working significantly better than the standard minion bomber builds in HM Missions and Vanquishing of Prophecies and Factions where we have tested it so far. Of course in a 6-yr old game there is nothing new under the sun, so I'm sure this has been tried and discussed before, but just wanted to share something we found useful.

HigherMinion · Jun 10, 2011, 01:26 PM // 13:26

You were just talking about melee support, splinter, MoP and Barbs, then made a bar that had nothing that synergises with that concept.

Explain thought process. You go /Mo, give smite hex/condi and no Strength of Honor. Meh.

Tainted Flesh will just disease your melee player.
Vile Miasma is a single packet of damage, which is a waste of a slot/time on a Minion Bomber.
No Death Nova... Regardless of how long it takes them to get into the battle, they will finish one off a struggling fight with a boom.

Xsiriss · Jun 10, 2011, 02:51 PM // 14:51

The MM bomber is pretty key to any HM situation (obviously not when there are no corpses). It provides a meat shield and one hell of a lot of damage, you really notice the benefit if you accidentally over aggro or against high level enemies (shiroken etc.)

As Pointed out above,the 'replacement' concept doesn't really synergise with anything. You May as well turn the MM into a curses necro but with some minions slapped in.

Spiritz · Jun 10, 2011, 03:00 PM // 15:00

tainted flesh would have to be cast on the whole team before combat and that will slow the mm down especially if the cast it on minions.And after doing so you hope that the mm has enough energy to be of use - ive no idea how the ai handles tainted flesh but also recognise any human foes you face will spread it on to your team.
If the ai handles it like splinter weapon you may find the minions having tainted on them and suddeny your teams affected if foes human and the healer in party is going to have a lot of pressure.

Godrik Gandolfi · Jun 10, 2011, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Sorry I might not have been clear - this is just a replacement for the standard minion bomber which I have found helpful - the melee support curses would still run on other heroes in the party, not carried on the minion bomber, which traditionally has the core minion bombing skills and whatever other utilities fit - commonly protection, but sometimes smiting, command buffs, blood necro skills etc.

But you're right of course about tainted flesh - there is a risk here with other human foes, I guess must have been using it in areas where there weren't many so it didn't become a problem to us in practise.

The idea was to still have minions, just that some of the bombing was proving redundant because they tended to lag behind a party so much when mobs were going down so quickly in some situations. The point was to separate the condition spamming of death nova from the minions by using putrid explosion on corpses, then when the minions catch up if the fight is still going on, they can be useful as chaff.

Anyway - it was just a suggestion. Good point about the tainted flesh, I hadn't spotted the implications of that. In the team I use the focus is on one WE Scythe warrior (me) up front so there is little delay and there is a good deal of redundancy in melee support curses going on so we don't have to wait for tainted flesh to be cast. This is mainly aimed at those areas where you are c-ctrl-spacing through the mobs anyway - for tougher areas you'd use something more tailored to the situation at hand.

Haggis of Doom · Jun 10, 2011, 03:27 PM // 15:27

The Hero AI will keep every party member Tainted Flesh'ed. Human foes are not an issue since TF makes one immune to disease. It doesn't mean TF is a good choice however: if you kill so fast a minion bomber is slow, I can't imagine spreading 4 pips of degen is worth your elite (especially since Death Nova does the same thing better). I used to use this on my MB in the h/h era for vqs which involved foes who spread mass disease.

In easier areas, the MB is just an "oshit" blanket which turns a wipe into a win. You theoretically could get by with much less heals in those areas too, yet most people would bring them anyways and watch as their healers sit at full energy. Why should the MB get a different treatment?

Anyhow, if it bothers you that much, you could try an OoU MM with Fiends and Vamps. Just be sure to give him enough energy and drop him an EBSoH.

Bandwagon · Jun 10, 2011, 03:32 PM // 15:32

If your team is blowing stuff up quickly enough before minions arrive on the scene, then perhaps either

a) Improve the overall movement speed of the team instead of minion bombing altogether. Your team just owned the mob of monsters, why not just decrease the time spent from A to B since it looks like you have the whole "combat" portion of GW all wrapped up?

b) Bring Bone Fiends, since the other minions don't arrive on the scene in time, maybe the bone fiends will be able to get a few hits off and participate.

c) Do both, bring Fall Back and a standard non Death Nova MM to your team and profit.

Your bar currently does nothing for the team that another physical slot / Melee support slot cannot already do (better).

Anaraky · Jun 10, 2011, 03:33 PM // 15:33

The issue I have with MBs isn't that they are lagging behind, it is that they hog Shelter charges. Having to choose between Shelter or a MB should be an easy decision in the harder areas of the game and in the easier ones it really doesn't matter.

HigherMinion · Jun 10, 2011, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

The issue I have with MBs isn't that they are lagging behind, it is that they hog Shelter charges. Having to choose between Shelter or a MB should be an easy decision in the harder areas of the game and in the easier ones it really doesn't matter.

Well, you take Shelter for minions, you take PS for the players. Problem solved.

Also, Fall Back is a good option on your MB, and also OoU for elite. Once minions begin to participate, their damage will be noticed. It's like protting them all with SoH.

FoxBat · Jun 10, 2011, 03:48 PM // 15:48

AotL + Shambling horror. You'd be surprised how many minions you can keep up with just those two skills. Add putrid bile/explosion to taste, then give him a second, non-death job. Resto heals, curses, blood ritual battery, more splinter weapon, whatever.

Really though if you're a pile of frontliners, you may not want to bother with death magic at all. I only came back to using MMs to help my caster ball/corall foes.

Godrik Gandolfi · Jun 10, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Thanks for all the help, everyone!

@ Haggis - I'll certainly give OoU a try, sounds like what I need. I didn't want to get rid of minions completely for precisely the 'oshit' blanket reason you mentioned. Just that we were looking to see if there was a better way to use them.

I'm sorry to say I'm long way from getting the combat side of GW all wrapped up ;-) so now and then we find a spot where the minions really do help, and sometimes turn a wipe into a win as you say.

I'll certainly give AotL and FallBack a try too, as improving whole-team speed might solve the issue. And to be honest, it's not really a huge issue, but was just an excuse to fiddle with the builds and have fun.

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to comment.

Lanier · Jun 10, 2011, 04:03 PM // 16:03

minion bombers are great for taking aggro from other party members in an extended fight. They are a great safety net, and as such, I don't think there will ever be a replacement for them. Along with my prot and heal monks, my minion bomber is the only other character that always stays in any of my 7 hero parties because it is just that good.

Although I typically use jagged bones, another elite that I like is the underrated Animate Flesh Golem. Flesh Golems are defensive beasts, even against hard mode enemies, and can provide a sturdy target for the enemy to fight for a very long amount of time. The more damage your minions can soak up, the more damage your party doesn't have to soak up, and flesh golems can soak up a lot of damage. The fact that they leave an exploitable corpse is just icing on the top. I know many people don't like this elite, but it really is a pretty good option for a minion master, and jagged bones/aotl are kinda meh anyway.

Anaraky · Jun 10, 2011, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Well, you take Shelter for minions, you take PS for the players. Problem solved.

Also, Fall Back is a good option on your MB, and also OoU for elite. Once minions begin to participate, their damage will be noticed. It's like protting them all with SoH.

A MB isn't good enough to warrant a hero perpetually spamming PS on the whole party, especially considering you have to micro it. The whole point of Shelter is that you don't have to do that. Minions on the whole are fairly overrated.

But I agree with FB, pretty much always on the bar when I bring a MB.

thetwistedboy · Jun 10, 2011, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

The MM bomber is pretty key to any HM situation (obviously not when there are no corpses). It provides a meat shield and one hell of a lot of damage, you really notice the benefit if you accidentally over aggro or against high level enemies (shiroken etc.)

I've been playing without an MM/Minion Bomber for over a year and it's a choice I don't regret. They are waste of space due to how I play. They really aren't key in HM, they are just another DPS hero that can give support. An SS hero could provide a lot more DPS if you micro or the hero decides to be smart (not likely).

Quote:

As Pointed out above,the 'replacement' concept doesn't really synergise with anything. You May as well turn the MM into a curses necro but with some minions slapped in.

I agree with that though. Tainted Flesh really isn't a good option because disease is very uncommon in PvE and when it is there, this isn't a great skill choice anyway. Degeneration isn't a particularly strong thing in HM, or even mid - high level NM. If you want your MM/Minion Bomber to be more useful, either wait for your minions, or add an "Incoming!"/"Fall back!" paragon to speed things up/heal the minions between fights.

LexTalionis · Jun 24, 2011, 05:16 AM // 05:16

I don't use MBs much either. They usually slow down my party way too much even with FB and the benefit you get from the "distracting" effect of minions is much less important if you use damage mitigation such as Shelter, Prot Bond and PS, or set up heroes to tank (This is possible but requires you exploit enemy AI. The few times I actually do use an MM, I usually use him for tanking with Dark Pact, drawing aggro with health sac).

You do miss Death Nova, but it's not a big loss. I just use Putrid Explosion instead, which is a lot more spammable than Death Nova and works excellently in a team with high kill speeds. It also gives me the liberty to add Consume Corpse, which is an okay skill for corpse deprival and E management. Since you're using a physway, it'd probably be more effective for you just to use Curses/Blood for Blood Bond.

Ximvotn · Jun 24, 2011, 06:20 AM // 06:20

I tried Tainted Flesh and it was disappointing on heroes.

AndrewSX · Jun 24, 2011, 06:46 AM // 06:46

First of all, i prefer a MM instead of a MB. Having minions explode when dying isn't bad, but really slow down your team, more than a normal MM (expecially if you use JBones and DNova).

Aotl, Masochism and Bone Horror(the most simple but best afterall) is enough to build a MM bar for me, leaving rest for para/resto/nec/prot utility. Add BotM+Taste of death and SolS to fill the bar if you need, and enjoy 11x lvl 20 minions running around the screen.

If you really want DNova, take a Mes, spec a bit in Death Mag. and have fun of FC effect for DNova spam w/o slow down(5 ene+0 recharge makes FC shines).

For alternatives at MM, i've heard that heroes aren't that bad with OotU bars, haven't tried myself tho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

I've been playing without an MM/Minion Bomber for over a year and it's a choice I don't regret. They are waste of space due to how I play. They really aren't key in HM, they are just another DPS hero that can give support. An SS hero could provide a lot more DPS if you micro or the hero decides to be smart (not likely).

I'd be happy to drop MM anytime, but is a choice you can do (or at least safely) only as meele player. I, that use mostly casters, always need the "wall of dead meat" to draw the attention away from squishy targets (yes, even if there's the ST option to uber prots..), and nothing can replace a good MM in this (spirits can't run in the middle of the mobs by themselves).

BTW, dropping the MM slot opens possibilities like Bip nec (not bad in a 7H contest) or other support stuff (expecially meele one, but also defuffs and mob control), where nec shines. And if you spec in Death you can always trow in a summon minion skill, even w/o building rest of the bar around it.